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Post by nails on Jul 28, 2011 22:26:26 GMT -5
I am really starting to question everything I was taught in church growing up. The only thing I hold on to is Jesus and his love and what he did for us.....beyond that I don't trust much else. I don't trust translations and stuff spewed from the pulpit, I can't help but feel that "we" have been getting it all wrong for 100's of years.
Thats all I got for now, will talk more later.
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Post by larryl on Jul 28, 2011 23:20:10 GMT -5
depends on the "we" you mean, i think.
i think the American evangelical church is a long ways from the New Testament church... but i think there are churches here doing it right.
our very puritanical roots in this country have had a huge effect, and have brought a lot of goofy legalism into the church, but we don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, to use a cliche... there is legalism, and then there are true biblical commands.
i agree we should questions things, but we should look for the answer in light of scripture, i think. we can't just pick and choose the parts we like, and toss the rest. not saying you're doing that, just saying i know most of us have, at some point.
as for translations, that's pretty much all we have, so we have to trust some of them, to some extent, or the whole thing's a big waste of time.
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Post by nails on Jul 29, 2011 7:36:15 GMT -5
Christians have been picking out what they like and don't like about the bible for years and years. With that said, most don't want to dig and find the true meaning, they just dig to find out what will support them and the other stuff they avoid, I am guilty of that but at the same time I want to dig to make sure I got it right. I don't know if we can bounce everything off of scripture, if that scripture is wrong or had been mis translated for 100's of years then the boat is being missed.
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Post by Disputatio on Aug 1, 2011 8:46:39 GMT -5
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Post by jiminycricket on Aug 3, 2011 15:36:51 GMT -5
without watching that vid..I think the American Church is in irrepairable shambles..and people are waking up to it as individuals. The church building idea is defunct, adn to me only looks like a club. Igniting individuals is biblical, corraling them is not of God. Weve come eons since the synagogue, which I think was only convenient,.. not necessary. there ;-)
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Post by nails on Aug 4, 2011 18:28:26 GMT -5
I have gotten to the point of being very anti church as it is today. Do I have the answers? No, but I don't believe this is the way it should be for damn sure. Like I said, I am still searching.
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Post by jiminycricket on Aug 8, 2011 10:43:21 GMT -5
I dont know that I am even searching anymore. I guess I like a church that is like the YMCA....yer a member, you go there when you need to workout..no one gives you the stink eye when you arent there for months..and of course..summers off!
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Post by babyfood on Aug 8, 2011 11:24:15 GMT -5
The Church has gotten it wrong for a long time. This is nothing new. People, you and I, make up the Body of Christ. We are flawed and prone to error. We are sinful and prone to demanding our own way. This didn't escape Jesus.
Oversimplification: The point of gathering together is to worship God. It is also supposed to have a transforming effect on us where we are being transformed into more Christ like believers. This is difficult, if not impossible, to do in isolation or with only like-minded people.
Church is messed up because people are messed up, and yet for a couple thousand years God has managed to move the message and its freedom forward using this extremely flawed format.
I guess I just have to trust that God knows what's going on and what to do with all of my missteps and blunders along the way.
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Post by nails on Aug 8, 2011 18:23:18 GMT -5
I don't know that church as it is today is 'moving forward' at all. It seems to be stuck in a rut and can't get out of the way of itself! While I don't agree with EVERYTHING the emergent movement has put out, I definitely identify more closely with it and feel they are pushing some real legitimate things that the church choosed to avoid or refuses to acknowledge.
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Post by jiminycricket on Aug 8, 2011 18:27:15 GMT -5
I guess what I meant by "like minded" is people who have a hunger for His work and word. I have been convinced also that I don't need to go to "church-club on Sundays" ( or Wednesday, kids church, special services, marriage session, Roman Roads, Discipleship classes, Building program to build a bigger version of what you already have, Peanut Brittle n Bake Sale night) well- you get the picture.
What is missing if you are meeting on some kind of schedule ( that's convenient for all even!) and digging into Gods word, citing verses, discussing all your personal ups and downs, sharing something you read, praying for needs, and oohh, having coffee in the morning? or pizza, or being at this guys house this time? NO extra light bills, or "central office" or even paid pastor,..sounds like an economy that God likes, but yeah, prolly not as good as 100 foot tall wood and glass meeting houses.
sorry to spout- but after all these years I am getting this "system" less and less. What does it take to be a believer beyond believing?
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Post by larryl on Aug 8, 2011 21:42:51 GMT -5
I think both models have a place. The large gathering, and the smaller group. Different strokes for different folks. Many great churches started as 3 or 4 people gathering together.
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Post by babyfood on Aug 8, 2011 21:58:31 GMT -5
I guess what I meant by "like minded" is people who have a hunger for His work and word. I have been convinced also that I don't need to go to "church-club on Sundays" ( or Wednesday, kids church, special services, marriage session, Roman Roads, Discipleship classes, Building program to build a bigger version of what you already have, Peanut Brittle n Bake Sale night) well- you get the picture. What is missing if you are meeting on some kind of schedule ( that's convenient for all even!) and digging into Gods word, citing verses, discussing all your personal ups and downs, sharing something you read, praying for needs, and oohh, having coffee in the morning? or pizza, or being at this guys house this time? NO extra light bills, or "central office" or even paid pastor,..sounds like an economy that God likes, but yeah, prolly not as good as 100 foot tall wood and glass meeting houses. sorry to spout- but after all these years I am getting this "system" less and less. What does it take to be a believer beyond believing? First off, there is nothing wrong with what you describe. We are to gather together, the function of gathering is more important than the form of gathering. It is in the living of our lives together that matters. That is what helps form the character of Christ within us. Our character if formed through all that comes with community, too. We learn to listen, apologize, forgive, surrender, submit, and serve. It is also forged in the conflicts and the working toward resolutions. Organic Church is a good read that talks about this very thing. You might like it...a lot. |
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Post by nails on Aug 9, 2011 7:45:13 GMT -5
It's a rare church that does what you describe babyfood - churches are shelters for christians to hide in, show up once a week and look all prim and proper act fake and keep "the world" out. Sure it's good to grow and learn and so on but the environment that the church does it in is not what God had planned in my opinion. I agree with Jiminy so much on this. And by the way, most churches are FULL of like minded people, that is why people go to them! Hell, I am looking at actually going to a church for the first time in a long time and it is because I find that this church lines up with most of the things I believe a church should actually be doing. Anyway, church as it is today sucks but I do agree that it can be very helpful and sometimes we need a little shelter from the storm.
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Post by Disputatio on Aug 9, 2011 11:58:03 GMT -5
Some churches are a country club, and others actually try.
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Post by babyfood on Aug 9, 2011 13:39:50 GMT -5
It's a rare church that does what you describe babyfood - churches are shelters for christians to hide in, show up once a week and look all prim and proper act fake and keep "the world" out. Sure it's good to grow and learn and so on but the environment that the church does it in is not what God had planned in my opinion. I agree with Jiminy so much on this. And by the way, most churches are FULL of like minded people, that is why people go to them! Hell, I am looking at actually going to a church for the first time in a long time and it is because I find that this church lines up with most of the things I believe a church should actually be doing. Anyway, church as it is today sucks but I do agree that it can be very helpful and sometimes we need a little shelter from the storm. The church I describe is the one in the Bible. You know, the same church where some guy was sleeping with his father's wife (YUCK!!!), or adding things to what it means to be saved like Circumcision (OUCH!!!), or a host of other problems. The same church where Paul and Peter argued about who was doing what and where. Yep, that church...the one Jesus died for. I'm not saying that it's perfect. I'm not saying we are getting it right all the time. And, my cynicism can get to award winning levels about what and how we do what we do. The church has never been perfect...and the churches growth outside of the USA is pretty astounding. I guess I see the Church as a group of people that, in general, are doing the best they can and if they keep seeking they will find. That's my hope, at least. |
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